Yes I am obsessed enough to actually pay $15 for those seeds. I believe when I purchased last year, 5 seeds were included at that price. I have it labeled “Giant Bocaleme Squash” in my seed list in the first or second post in this topic. I wanted this variety to work for me more than most of them, but unfortunately, I don’t have anything growing fruit like that.
I recently screenshoted a similar looking pumpkin being offered. I might order it this time, or I might pass it up. I like butternut squash, but for some weird reason, I am obsessed with growing pumpkins, especially Moschata. Maybe it’s a combination of Halloween nostalgia mixed with food security paranoia.
In these temperatures and with me spraying Spinosad bacteria on the reckless pepo I notice the squash bugs have been hanging out on the watermelons with leaf footed bugs. They have different stages of squash bug young crawling on the watermelons when I went to test harvest a watermelon today. I have even seen squash bug eggs laid on my okra plants. Sudden death, healthy yesterday, dead the next to me is symptomatic of Squash Vine Borer moth larvae. It’s definitely a war in the south against squash plants so I think if any tough varieties come out of landracing them it will be under this pressure.
Have you studied heat units before (aka Growing Degree Days)? I have not looked at HUs for squash but I have looked at HUs for corn. For example corn doesn’t grow below 50F, it also stops growing above 86F which is why hot months corn grows shorter but matures faster than in the colder months. The basic idea is if your highs go above 86 you just use 86. Then you subtract the low from the high to get the heat units for that day. So 36 heat units for the average southern summer day. Then each variety has a certain number of heat units to reach maturity. So a 90 DTM corn variety that lets say 1,600 heat units to reach maturity under southern summers that would be mature in less days, say 45 days but be shorter in overall height as the corn shuts down growth after 86F.
I have not researched that topic before. Just a moment ago, I looked at the 10 day forecast. I added all the highs together and added all the lows together. Including today and the next 9 days, my total highs are 988. My total lows are 754. The difference is 234. That divided by 10 is 23.4. So I guess at least this time a year, the temperature swings an average of that much.
Anyways, I looked into the topic of heat units just now on Moschata. Still more to learn, but I did confirm my suspicions of it not putting out female flowers well in above 90 degree scenarios.
I noticed the Chinese tropical and the magic cushaw putting our an another fruit after I harvested over last weekend. I am deliberately selecting for a fruiting in high heat ability. I want to breed a Moschata that goes from the middle of March to the middle in November, which is my entire season.
I found the formula they actually use with corn. I had a simplification in my head to initially understand what’s going on but this is what they use.
Corn Growing Degree Day Formula = (Daily High + Daily Low) / 2 – 50
Which in generic form is
GDD = (Tmax + Tmin) / 2 – Tbase
GDDs are calculated each day as maximum temperature plus the minimum temperature divided by 2 (or the mean temperature), minus the base temperature. GDDs are accumulated by adding each day’s GDs contribution as the season progresses. If the average temperature is below the base temperature, the growing degree day value for that day is zero.
GDDs are typically measured from the start of growth in spring for a particular crop. Any daily mean temperature below Tbase is set to Tbase before calculating the average giving a zero value. Likewise, the maximum temperature is usually capped at 86 °F (30 °C) because most plants do not grow any faster above that temperature. However, some warm temperate and tropical plants do have significant requirements for days above 86 °F (30 °C) to mature fruit or seeds.
I haven’t found precise numbers like that for Moschata.
My growing season is 245 days average. The middle of that range is hellish temperatures that few plants want to grow in. Even my okra are now showing heat stress.
I have seen other places online talking about moshata’s heat tolerance for female flowers being in the temperature range of 70 to 89.
I have 4 fruit that was pollinated in the last couple weeks. This is evidence that those plants have some ability to push past 90 degrees on fruit set. Therefore, I am treating the resulting seeds with high priority.
The only studies I found so far were for Curcurbita Moschata Duchesne which is a varietal of Crookneck Squash in Brazil. Their findings could help contrast or corroborate what you are seeing in your own moschata grow outs.
growth and development are favored by mean temperatures ranging from 18 to 24 °C, although the species also tolerates higher temperatures
the determination of accumulated degree days (GDD) was given considering the minimum and maximum basal temperatures of 12 and 35 °C. The average duration of phenological stages were 6.4, 29.2,48.2, 60.9, 63.0 and 69.6 days, with demands for thermal time of 88.2; 401.9; 661.5; 832.5; 858.6 and 985.5 GDD for phases to emergence, emission of first male button and first female button, first male flower and first female flower and early harvest
the number of male and female flowers differ in C. moschata, as the number of female flowers is quite smaller in comparison to the number of the male ones
greater male and female flower proportions resulted in smaller agronomic performance
the female flowers have prominent inferior ovaries, and they anticipate the size of the future fruit
high temperatures promote male flowers and delay female flower development. The exposure to daytime temperatures of 32 °C and to night temperatures of 21 °C causes the death of female flower buds
higher temperatures can reduce the vegetative growth of this plant, thus they delay the developmental stages. It was noticed that the plant developmental cycle in the last planting season was prolonged when TM exceeded TB
the greatest impact between sowing dates were seen in the emission of the first male and female flower buds and in the openings of male and female flowers with the greatest variation in ratio of female to male flowers found to occur in the June plantings. 1:8 to 1:18 observed.
the female sowing-flowering period demanded from 763.4 to 993.1 GDD (56-76 DAS [days after sowing])
The timing of fruit harvest should be set when fruit development reaches 100 GDD (8.0 days after the female flower emission)
sowing time does not influence the fruit growing rates
harvest time duration did not significantly differ between different sowing times
it was observed that fruits required 179 GDD to reach the harvesting point; they showed no massive increase in comparison to fruits harvested in earlier GDD stages
later sowing dates [end of July in the study] do not influence the thermal requirements of fruit growth but increase the size and fresh mass of squash fruit
squash developmental stages were 48 and 69.6 days, on average, and the accumulated thermal sums were 661.5 and 985.5 GDD for the first female button emission and the early harvest, respectively
My wife saw a snake in the pumpkin patch. Only 4 pumpkin fruit is being ripened on the vine. I went ahead and mowed down everything except those plants with the fruit.
The other plants have been going on too long without producing. Some have been there since late March without producing a single fruit. I have no regrets.
I went ahead and reseeded all the planting spots and mulched with grass clippings. I figure by the time they get big enough to flower, the temps will be more favorable. Right now it’s just too hot for all but a few stubborn rascals.
I planted those seeds yesterday. I have around 100 days until my average first frost. This go round, I’m selecting for earliness. Also, I have planted some new varieties in addition to seeds from the second best fruit from Perseverance.
I’ve got some plants in various spots that were planting weeks ago that were small enough to avoid the mower.
I anticipate harvesting 4 fruit from those ripening now and fingers crossed for an early November harvest.
Just moments before I took these pictures, I saw bees in the female flower and male flower of its neighbor plant. I saw a bee travel from one plant to the other.
Those two flowers in the image are the only two flowers in my whole pumpkin patch right now. The idea that a little baby pumpkin plant would produce a male flower right next to its more mature neighbor who seems ready to make a fruit was interesting to me. The idea popped in my head, “Life will find a way.” Or maybe it was just a coincidence.
Anyways, maybe this got pollinated. When I got ready to take the image, ants had taken over the female flower. No bees there now. Who knows.
The last picture is the planting areas with seedlings now. They germinated very fast.
This was a bad day for my 2023 cucurbita moschata landrace. My first place winner for fastest maturity has revealed itself to have deal-breaker traits.
In the beginning of this topic, I listed the varieties used in this project. Although I didn’t mark each planting spot, I am certain I have identified the pumpkin being brought to attention: “Decorative Moschata from Halloween pumpkin sale “about 10 lbs fruit.”
Although the pumpkin I saved seeds from looked and tasted similar to butternut (insides), the winning descendant has a very stringy flesh which for me is not tolerable.
In the image with the 2 squash, the pathetic looking one is the one I grew. It is the third generation of saved seed in this area. I will open it up today. If it has viable looking seeds, I will give it one more chance. So far it has been a disappointment.
The large, 4.25 pound squash comes from Fayetteville TN. I used to work that town when I had TN as a territory. I am familiar with the climate this squash was grown in. It’s basically like my climate except softer in terms of heat by about 5 - 10 degrees. So, I see this squash as almost as good as if I grew it in my own garden. I will plant the seeds next year and hope for the best.
I have similar failures with my Moschata. Last year, none came up. This year, the only ones really thriving are the ones I seeded on top of buried kitchen scraps. In my area, Apr/May/June were really low precipitation months so I may have to help my moschata plants along in those conditions going forward (watering/mulching)
I found a roadside stand and a guy selling Amish products in North Alabama just East of Florence. I saw a pile of Halloween pumpkins and decorative maximas mostly.
I did find a small table of Moschatas. I asked him does he know where these were grown. He said he bought them from his Amish friend. I then asked him has he seen the field. He said yes. These and other Moschatas and maximas were grown together by a local Amish farmer.
I am assuming this was grown in south central TN because I used to work that area and know of a small Amish presence there.
The climate is similar to my own, except softer in terms of heat by 5-10 degrees. I am excited about this find.
I have attached an image of the whole Moschata patch. I have about 25 fruit out there. This fall planting has been more fruitful but not without its own challenges. It’s been very dry here, and the bees have abandoned me after I killed the cucumbers off. I hand pollinated most of the fruit. Additionally, the fruit is growing slowly, and I worry some will not fully mature by first frost which might be the middle of November.
This planting batch I have not used any fertilizer, even organic methods have not been used. Most plants have only 1 fruit and do not seem interested in producing another.
Some methods: When I hand pollinated, I always looked for male flowers from other plants as a first rule. I also looked to get male flowers from those plants who already had a fruit established. I wanted to make sure I chose pollen donators from plants that have proven themselves to produce fruit.
Another method I used which I think had significant impact on this harvest is I had a bulk supply of butternut seeds that I used as insurance. Each planting spot got its own individual variety of Moschata, like before. Those specialized seeds got put in the center of the planting spot. Just in case those seeds proved to be weak, i surrounded them with butternut seeds on the outside edges and marginal places. I thinned very carefully during the weeks following, treating the outside butternut like red headed step children. If any survived my thinning process, they were exceptional and earned their place.
The four little ones seen above are what I’ve picked so far from my late summer sowing that had 100 days to ripen before frost. The plants from those four had died completely, and the vine appeared to be done delivering anything. I probably have 15 to 20 similar fruits out there still ripening.
We have been in a drought during most of their lifetime. The temperatures have dropped during the day to good growing temps but the nighttime temps have dropped below thriving conditions.
This second planting received the opposite challenges the first planting this year received. Where this one went through a drought, the first batch went through floods. When this one had good days and bad nights, the first batch had bad days and good nights.
With these 25 maybe fruit from the second batch, I might get 3 or 4 pies. If I was looking at this project from a food payoff perspective in the short term, I would see this as an absurd idea considering the time input. I did find joy in working on this. The process itself is part of the reward for me.
If I had fertilized these, I probably would have gotten much better yields.
