Landrace livestock for small spaces

I’m an obligate carnivore. If I don’t eat meat every day, I quickly get very sick. I’d like to be a localvore who grows as much of my own food as possible, and it concerns me that I have this nutritional need I have no way to grow for myself.

I live on 1/5 of an acre, half of which is reserved for garden and half of which is reserved for the children to play on. We have no space in the house for animals. We have very little grass (mostly just quackgrass, foxtail grass, and bindweed, none of which I want) because we live in a desert, and I refuse to waste water on plants I can’t eat.

I’d be happy to feed leftover food scraps and garden scraps to animals. I’m not willing to buy food for them. I don’t have the space (or, honestly, water to waste) to grow food for them, either. And given how little space I could devote to keeping them, I have a hard time believing I could maintain a large enough population to prevent really bad inbreeding.

I’ve assumed it’s impossible for me to raise any sort of livestock for meat. Those conditions seem okay for plants, not at all conceivable for animals. But . . . am I wrong?

I’m sure a lot of you have more experience than me.

You have weeds-would you have enough weeds to feed a few rabbits? Would rabbits thrive on them? Could you have a couple chickens under the rabbit cages to pick through what they don’t eat?

Would your neighbors be willing to give you their weeds, grass clippings, food scraps? You probably couldn’t have a sustainable group of chickens, but you might of rabbits.

Another interesting project!

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My grocery store occasionally sells rabbits. I’ll have to buy one and see if I like the taste! (And if my body reacts well to it, obviously.)

I keep reading people saying you have to buy chicken feed and can’t just grow food for them. That can’t be true, because then how did humans feed their chickens hundreds of years ago? Maybe it’s that they need bugs in their diet, and they don’t get enough bugs unless you buy feed or let them free range.

How destructive are chickens to a garden if you let them free range? I suspect they’re terrible pests, but it would be really cool if they’re okay in a garden and I could give them all my food scraps and garden scraps and let them forage for pest insects through my garden. My suspicion is they’ll eat all my tasty leaves and seed pods if I let them free range.

My neighbor told me her grandmother kept a chicken they let wander around wherever she pleased, and they never had any insects in their garden, which sounds neat. Of course, she also said they never got eggs because the chicken laid them in random hiding places, and they’d then wind up stinking months later, which sounds very unappealing.

I certainly wouldn’t mind replacing my “lawn” (a.k.a. bindweed) with an edible, drought tolerant ground cover. I want to do that, anyway. If that would be sufficient to feed some small livestock, then the space my kids use to play on could be used for food production without interfering with their enjoyment of their space.

Has anyone successfully done something like this?

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Chickens are pretty destructive if you let them. The problem is the scratching… they go around scratching away the plants to find the bugs and seeds and before you know plants are gone. One chicken in a garden would probably be OK, but that’s certainly not enough to eat. I switched to ducks because they actually graze and hunt for slugs.

Rabbits would be way better than chickens because they actually eat the grass you have to feed them instead of just destroying it. Whatever you try consider that they can digest plants, and don’t need seeds and bugs. Guinea pigs are really common in Mexico and Peru, and they don’t have much extra so maybe they are even more thrifty than rabbits.

I have always been a major animal person but I want to be able to grow my own food so I am mostly plant based now. I struggled with it for so long. I love dairy and meat. I was tired with bad blood sugar swings. The last month I feel like I learned some more about how my body could handle it-- I have to eat a lot of fat and protein, so I do in the form of coconut butter and beans. The upside lately is I feel like I need 6 hours instead of 8 hours of sleep (when I eat dairy/meat). Still testing that part though.

Good luck! It’s an important question.

I make my own grain-based chicken feed. The problem is protein. In most cases the extra protein in chicken feed is soy. I intend to free range them when they’re large enough.

Naturally, chickens are omnivores. They eat bugs, small rodents, snakes, etc. That’s where they got their protein as wild animals.

For thousands of years the chickens fended for themselves and wandered wherever they could find food. And they thrived. What we have now is chickens that have been bred for captivity, and not only captivity but absolute dependence on humans.

Maybe we need landrace chickens? :thinking:

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I suppose it’s possible but, in my situation, it’s very difficult to grow all my own chicken feed. They are not picky eaters that’s for sure so if you only have a few, say not more than five it might be doable on kitchen scraps, along with some sort of grain, in my case probably ground corn. It would be great to free range them so they could eat bugs ad stuff, but they are horribly destructive to gardens. They are also easy prey for a variety of neighborhood critters. And with so few, there is no way to sustain them, and you could only have eggs, never a chicken for the pot. I got rid of my chickens a few years ago.

I’ve thought about getting ducks, mostly based on Carol Deppe’s recommendations. Sounds like they are much easier to contain and much less destructive. I actually like duck eggs better than chicken eggs and I like roasted duck too.

I don’t especially like rabbit, although I have never tasted tame rabbit. I think they might be easier than chickens in about all respects, but they don’t lay a lot of eggs. Guinea pigs? They might be easy to feed and raise but I’ve never eaten one, and they also don’t lay many eggs. With rabbits I could easily avoid inbreeding by capturing a wild one once in a while, so that’s a sustainability plus for them.

I want to start raising some meet source again and right now leaning towards rabbits and or ducks. I don’t like goat, and beef cows are too big, too much food to process and store all at once without a big freezer. I do like ham and bacon, but I don’t like messing with pigs at all, so no pigs.

I love turkey but like chickens, not easily sustainable. I’m counting on the boy up the road to raise the turkeys. He has about thirty of them, all different kinds. I gave him a couple pounds of my corn to plant to feed them. I don’t know where he got them, and I didn’t know there were so many kinds. They must have come from somewhere like Sandhill Preservation. I’m hoping some escape and mix up with our wild turkeys.

The other thing I’ve been researching a little is quail. I think they might be easier to raise and feed than chickens and both the meat and eggs are fine.

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I agree that rabbits sound much more practical for you than chickens. They are vegetarians, they don’t need to free-range, and they will happily eat up all the weeds you can forage. (They can be picky about food scraps, though.) If you can hang a few cages on the back of the house or in a shed, you have enough room for them. We’ve always had to feed them some commercial food, but maybe you can induce your kids to pick enough weeds for them. Actually, the best part about keeping rabbits is that their poop makes excellent compost.

Actually, I’m thinking of putting them on pasture. I have plenty of material and fencing to secure it against them or anything else digging under it and to cover it so nothing can climb or fly in from above. It would be about 50 x 50 feet divided into two sections so I can rotate grazing, planting stuff they like to eat in each while they graze the other. It might also be fairly easy to grow lots of fresh greens for them most of the year. I wonder if they and quail might be ok sharing it.

I raise chickens and miniature goats on very little space. Deep bedding worked very well in the past but that is not possible with my current setup as deep bedding must be under a roof. This summer I want to get them all on pasture and get a spot ready for deep bedding next winter.
I loved raising quail, but I ended up selling the last few after my goats stepped on most of them. They should be able to live with rabbits, but they are not compatible with goats like chickens are. I had a feasible business plan written up for selling quail eggs, if the chickens work out good, I may get back to it.

What are quail like in a garden?

Yeah, I’ve heard so much about chickens being inbred and stuff. It sounds an awful lot like the issues with heirloom plant varieties. I’m guessing the solution is likely the same.

Putting rabbits on pasture? They tend to pick up a lot of infections from the ground (or so we’ve been told). Also they like to sleep in an enclosed space.

With whatever animal you could choose, they will need additional inputs, plain and simple. You could try growing your own feed, or you could grow food for yourself and use the savings to buy hay for rabbits or grain for poultry. The beauty in small livestock is they need very little room, as long as they have fresh bedding, or are moved to a new spot every day. Each quail needs one sq ft, a single rabbit needs like 6 sq ft, and chickens needs 3-8 sq ft each depending on flock size.
The problem with them is they need food and bedding gathered from a much larger area. There are a lot of free or cheap options like lawn clippings, tree prunings, Halloween pumpkins… ect. But to do well for you, you need to fulfill their nutritional requirements.
It might be worth looking into to find someone willing to raise the livestock for you. Like I am doing with meat chickens. Or to find people who want to buy bulk feed co-op style. Or someone who could grow feed.

I think that it is a great idea to landrace livestock, that’s what I’m working on. Dual purpose, able to live in small spaces and harsh climates. Thrive with minimal inputs, reproduce easily. Those are my goals. I wouldn’t worry about population size, it is easy to swap breeding stock or hatching eggs with local people. Joseph’s book has a section on a rooster rotation.

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They need an enclosed space to protect them from predators. I had them in a 3x5 floorles box that I moved around to harvested or unplanted parts of the garden. They would scratch looking for seeds, and eat small plants.

I never tried rabbits, but Joel Salatin’s rabbit pen is on YouTube. He talks about how they lost a lot of rabbits to disease at first, but only bred the survivors. Later when they had better survival, they only bred rabbits without symptoms of Coccidiosis, and whose siblings had no liver spots. Now they have great survival, but must be moved every day.

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I don’t have the small space issue, but I’m starting this summer with chickens from the Icelandic Landrace and then I’ll mix in other stuff over the years to develop my own ‘barnyard’ flock. I figure starting out with a survivor-landrace has to be all upside for me. (Joseph described spiral breeding in a post on Permies a few years ago and that sounds like a great approach to diversity to me.)

And as an aside, it’s interesting how diverse our own needs are as humans. I haven’t eaten any meat in just over 31 years and while I’m fat, all my blood tests always come back with rosy numbers and I haven’t ever felt like I was missing something. No wonder there’s so much confusion about our nutrition!

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Very much so! Almost as if human populations can be locally adapted to specific growing conditions, too. :wink:

In all seriousness, I’ve heard that humans whose ancestors lived a long time in very cold climates tend to thrive on animal products and do just fine without plants. This is likely because humans couldn’t eat the plants in that area (mainly grasses and stuff), so they adapted to raising herbivorous animals for meat and dairy instead.

Meanwhile, humans whose ancestors lived a long time in very hot climates, where there would have been loads of human-edible plants around, tend to do just fine as vegetarians, and sometimes even respond poorly to meat. A lot of people from climates like that are even lactose intolerant, because they didn’t need lactose persistence where they lived.

Most of my ancestors came from cold places and had highly animal-based diets, so that’s probably why my body works the way it does. Many thousands of years of local adaptation that is still active in my genes, even though I don’t live in that climate myself.

It’d be very convenient to be a vegetarian, or a mostly-vegetarian! I’d do it just because it was cheaper and more convenient if I could and also be healthy.

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You’ve had a lot of good responses about rabbits so I won’t add to that particular topic. However, as a chicken (and duck and goose) person, I thought I’d share some thoughts.

To start with, chickens without supplemental feed won’t produce eggs as well. Prior to widespread grain feeding and selection for production, it was normal for hens to lay 60-80 eggs a year. Eating chicken was also not a frequent thing back then - only for special occasions or when doing seasonal culls. This is just something to keep in mind and isn’t a “good” or “bad” thing.

Chickens can glean about 30% max of their required nutrients from the non-seed portions of plants. They require a calorie-dense diet. In the wild, this is largely insects, plant seeds, and any meat they can scavenge. Truly feral populations are largely limited to semi-tropical and tropical locations where insects and plants are present year-round.

In the mid-19th century, people kind of went bonkers about breeding animals and plants and importing new types. This is the time when many breed associations were created and when many breeds were formally made a “breed”. A number of chickens were imported from Asia (primarily China) and they were used to develop new breeds. These breeds all have a common feature from the Asiatic breeds that didn’t exist in European and Near East breeds: brown eggs.

Nowadays, people call these relatively modern, heavy(ish)-bodied brown layers “heritage” breeds - Plymouth Rocks, Orpingtons, Sussex, etc. They were developed during the time period when grain became cheap enough to feed chickens. These breeds are a bit like a plant that was bred for high-input farming.

Prior to that, grain was food for humans and high-value draft/riding animals (horses, cattle). Chickens were usually just “underfoot” and would clean up scraps from the more valuable animals and whatever the humans tossed their way. In countries like England where hedgerows were common, chickens could glean a lot of their needs from foraging there. We also have references to so-called “dunghill chickens” which were mostly game chickens that weren’t “game” enough for fighting and lived semi-feral on the dunghills (compost piles).

When we look at chickens that go feral and at pre-grain chicken breeds we see that they are mostly small birds. Two exceptions off the top of my head are the Dorking (modern weight around 8#, first referenced in 43 AD) and the White Faced Black Spanish (modern weight around 8#, pre-1600s). Otherwise, they tend to be much smaller, flighty, and game-like. Breeds like Leghorns, Hamburgs, Anconas, Andalusians, Campines, and various Game breeds - largely (and very sadly) out of favor amongst modern chicken owners.

On a farm setting, the most self-sufficient breeds you could choose would be the smaller birds that lay white or tinted eggs. Opt for breeds that are described as flighty - they’re likely wickedly smart (for a chicken) and most likely to survive while free-ranging. If they have access to be around larger animals they’ll love cleaning up spilled feed, scratching in their poop, and the presence of the larger animals deters some predators like hawks.

On a town/suburban lot setting, I’d opt for bantams. They need less feed input and can be quite productive for their size depending on breed. Choosing a feather-legged breed will reduce their scratching (but also means less food foraged).

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So, still not a good choice for a small space.

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We’ve thought about the Icelandic landrace, but they’re expensive and we had no idea how well adapted they were to our area (Hudson Valley) so we ended up with “heritage breeds.” I will be very interested to hear how you do with the Icelandics!

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The smaller flightier birds like leghorns and bantams are much better at fending for themselves and like to go farther out into the weeds and woods to forage so are also less troublesome with scratching and ruining a garden.

The are also seem better at alerting each other and paying attention to the crows and diving for cover from hawks. Some of them can fly fairly well, good enough to make an escape in some situations but unfortunately, they are not good enough, at any of it.

I live on the edge of a 5000-acre state owned hunting preserve and the private land around me and most of my land is just more of the same. Any small animal and even a bigger one like goats won’t live long free ranging too much. Coyotes, hawks, owls, foxes, bobcats are always watching.